tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post4475487413426282575..comments2023-10-28T04:21:28.288-05:00Comments on Domus Aurea: Some verses, their context, and what that meansJ Jorgensonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-6024966256177791532009-06-10T09:07:43.987-05:002009-06-10T09:07:43.987-05:00Indeed. The best end to these sorts of conversatio...<i>Indeed. The best end to these sorts of conversations involves alcohol and cigars. Get thee to Garrett County.</i> <br /><br />I'm saving up my pennies, Pastor; I really am.J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-76662999012385661012009-06-10T09:07:12.118-05:002009-06-10T09:07:12.118-05:00Historical theology has a cool name for this under...<i>Historical theology has a cool name for this understanding of original sin: Semi-Pelagianism. ;-)</i><br /><br />No. For I do not affirm anything in common with them. My understanding is straight and purely from St Augustine who articulated the Dogma of Original Sin in his disagreement with the Pelagians. <br /><br />I know you had your tongue in your cheek, but no ... you are wrong.J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-42388394396445280792009-06-10T09:06:41.858-05:002009-06-10T09:06:41.858-05:00But in a sense, this is what true dialogue is, Pas...<i>But in a sense, this is what true dialogue is, Pastor. Neither you nor I are prepared to deny our firmly held positions, but ... we nevertheless have learned a great deal about the other person and his position.</i><br /><br />Indeed. The best end to these sorts of conversations involves alcohol and cigars. Get thee to Garrett County.Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-51572565171144442132009-06-10T09:05:08.309-05:002009-06-10T09:05:08.309-05:00If yer just realising this now (re: what our diffe...If yer just realising this now (re: what our difference boils down to)... ;)<br /><br /><br />But seriously, you're correct. But in a sense, this is what true dialogue is, Pastor. Neither you nor I are prepared to deny our firmly held positions, but ... we nevertheless have learned a great deal about the other person and his position.J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-15112849427765466672009-06-10T09:04:43.289-05:002009-06-10T09:04:43.289-05:00For I was not born personally rejecting Christ in ...<i>For I was not born personally rejecting Christ in some positive way, opening my mother's womb and crying "I deny Christ!" Rather I was born into a Fallen state of exile that leads my damaged will to no longer always pick what is in accord with the will of God, but rather to sin.</i><br /><br />Historical theology has a cool name for this understanding of original sin: Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-64260595733734885912009-06-10T09:03:07.775-05:002009-06-10T09:03:07.775-05:00Oggie,
I really think that our disagreement is on...Oggie,<br /><br />I really think that our disagreement is one that is 521 years old.<br /><br />Though I suspect your approach might be a bit more sophisticated than the <a href="http://www.bookofconcord.org/confutatio.php" rel="nofollow">confutation (see article 2)</a>, the <a href="http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_2_originalsin.php" rel="nofollow">Apology of the Augsburg Confession</a> Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-82922339978676629142009-06-10T09:01:52.156-05:002009-06-10T09:01:52.156-05:00See, this is where our two theologies severely div...See, this is where our two theologies severely diverge, because we do not recognise Original Sin in this way.<br /><br />Paragraphs 402 to 406 of the CCC describe this better than I do. But essentially the particular sin of Adam, because he was given Original Holiness and Original Justice for not just himself but also his descendents, lead to the state of spiritual death that we inherit in human J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-89867277400445390022009-06-10T08:49:01.417-05:002009-06-10T08:49:01.417-05:00The state of original sin into which we are concei...The state of original sin into which we are conceived is a state of spiritual death. It is by its very nature an active rejection of God.<br /><br />So yes, the one on the remote island who has never heard of Christ is (apart from special revelation from God) in active rejection of him.<br /><br />A dead man is dead whether he knows it "actively" or not.<br /><br />What you are Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-66258410585310126022009-06-10T08:45:32.857-05:002009-06-10T08:45:32.857-05:00Again, I affirm that whoever is born into this wor...Again, I affirm that whoever is born into this world is born into the state of Original Sin, which is alienation from God. Thus all are damned without the Salvation only Christ can give.<br /><br />So, if one lives on some remote as-yet-undiscovered isle and has never heard of Christ ... do we say he has rejected Him? Unless God sends St Philip to the Eunuch, or finds some other similar way, we J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-69261829778676993992009-06-10T08:40:27.842-05:002009-06-10T08:40:27.842-05:00Our disagreement seems to center on what damns. I...Our disagreement seems to center on what damns. I would argue along the lines of Saint Paul in Ephesians 2 that whoever has not received new life in Christ is actively walking in the way of "the prince of the power of the air."<br /><br />You seem to believe that without active, conscious rejection of Christ that you are not in Satan's power. I believe that Saint Paul makes it Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-17553565142394068522009-06-10T08:17:01.714-05:002009-06-10T08:17:01.714-05:00I think our disagreement in general, especially af...I think our disagreement in general, especially after we have ability to come back to it after emotions have cooled was instructional for us both.<br /><br />I will say that yes and no to your point. But in order to lie about the Divinity of Christ, and thus make oneself an Enemy, one must deliberately do so. In other words if I have long believed you were born in Afghanistan and repeat that, it J Jorgensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407035318364016135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19852520.post-47392622839985672922009-06-10T08:08:32.675-05:002009-06-10T08:08:32.675-05:00Thanks for this post. Though I disagree with your...Thanks for this post. Though I disagree with your conclusions, it does help me understand your perspective better, and that IS valuable.<br /><br />I'm going to try to crystalline my specific point of disagreement in one or two sentences.<br /><br />Though I think that you correctly identify the specific context and the immediate problem that John is addressing in his first epistle, I think Rev. Charles Lehmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09089242798450053313noreply@blogger.com